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Post by Lucretia on Mar 2, 2010 17:57:45 GMT
Well that one is rather simple. Given he obviously must have accepted the T&C to be able to access his profile, he's already agreed to pay the 15%
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Post by grooveduke on Mar 2, 2010 18:34:36 GMT
Well... yes. But, he should still try to get the better deal. If he had played it cool, he could have started a new profile for the waiting period. He didn't know he was going to make it in a week, of course, but he knew he was going to stay and so had nothing to lose by passively accepting the new terms after 2 weeks.
I think he should ask.
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li
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 35
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Post by li on Mar 2, 2010 21:14:56 GMT
@xander: It's a combination of factors. The problem with micropayment in general is that without a track record, a company ends up paying a huge percentage of the amount charged to the merchant account or the micro payment provider. Merchant accounts are valued by the amount of charge-backs and fraudulent transactions they accumulate. The higher the charge-back and/or fraud rate, the more you pay. If the charge-backs fraudulent transactions get over a certain percentage, then you stand to lose your merchant account. Micro-payment sites attract higher charge back and fraudulent transactions, it's a fall-back from the good-old value added service phone numbers and gaming/adult websites. Which means that in order to get an Merchant Account, you need to be approved. To refuse a company a Merchant Account is often based of the nature of the website (e.g. adult or gambling) or the goods or services that it sells. If you sell products, tactile goods, then it is easier to get a MA. The chances for fraud or pay-back decrease. In general it is easier for companies in non-EU countries to get a MA. But you need to be incorporated in the country where you apply for a Merchant Account. There are many ways to get a MA the non conventional way, but then you're faced with middle men and very high transaction fees and in some cases you'll never see a dime. thor: simply put, to be able to use the services of e.g. Ayden, the company needs a Merchant Account. A Merchant Account allows you to charge on the credit cards as e.g. Sellaband GmbH. if you don't have a Merchant Account the charges would appear as Ayden, and Sellaband will pay higher transaction fees for using Ayden. I don't even know if Ayden is currently offering the latter, it has become more difficult because of the current climate to prevent terrorism to fund their activities. So the Aydens of this world are more careful to whom they offer which services.
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Post by grooveduke on Mar 3, 2010 1:30:38 GMT
Thank You, Li. Now things are crystal clear.
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thor
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 42
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Post by thor on Mar 3, 2010 3:24:51 GMT
Thanks, Li, for the explanation. I didn't buy new parts, after the NewEra, so I don't know if the payment is billed by Adyen or Sellaband.
Maybe that's even the explanation why SAB's socalled "transaction costs" are significantly higher than the ones Adyen is listing on their website? I always thought they would include some hidden percentage for Sellaband itself. Who knows...
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Post by mawa on Mar 3, 2010 9:31:03 GMT
Hm, yes, so something of the past makes sense now...at least for the technicalities.
SAB, when they had the change of the T&C in December 08 (the 'new' era) had created the first big wave of refunds. At that time that was done by charge-backs from the original Creditcard transactions... That must have blown SABs rating out of the water. So, they changed the refunds to Paypal only. But I guess, their credibility was largely already lost at that time, banks and bank-like institutions are kinda unforgivable and equipped with a longterm memory.
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Post by wyando on Mar 3, 2010 9:55:28 GMT
Thanks, Li, for this inside view on MA and micropayment. And as mawa already said, this really explains some of SAB past actions according to payments and payouts...
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danny
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 42
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Post by danny on Mar 3, 2010 10:07:07 GMT
What is strange about the whole 'We're not a bank' statements is that you can always retract your earnings - no time limit there, so in effect SaB is still functioning as a bank, even if it is for small amounts.
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danny
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 42
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Post by danny on Mar 3, 2010 10:08:02 GMT
Well that one is rather simple. Given he obviously must have accepted the T&C to be able to access his profile, he's already agreed to pay the 15% Well in fact he's agreed to 85% (ninety) percent of the budget being allocated to the project
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li
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 35
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Post by li on Mar 3, 2010 10:27:19 GMT
@tor: me neither, but I guess they still had their Merchant Account. I don't think hidden profits on transactions would end up under transaction costs. They should end up under Administration fee. If SAB would have made money on the transactions and IF NOT declared it as Administration fee, then it would have ended up as revenue. In some countries this would be taxed. There was/is a similar issue when you buy something in a shop and when you pay with credit card, you're charged a percentage (in some shops I've seen 5-10%) on top of the price on the label. One very eager Tax Inspector stipulated that this was a price increase and therefore to be declared as revenues, as the credit card transaction costs already were declared and deducted as costs. mawa : This is what they did, really? Pay-backs for refunds are different from Pay-back because of Charge-back. A Charge-back is done without the consent of the Merchant (in this case SAB) because the cardholder has claimed the transaction to be "fraudulent". This Charge-back situation occurred for example with this Gustavo guy. The refunds through credit cards, however, should not be counted as charge-backs. We don't know how many SAB believers actually claimed and received charge-backs after they bought a part. This also happens quite a lot. Credit Card companies don't check the validity of the claim of the credit card holder, they just charge back. Often it happens that a kid charges on his parents' card and then of course the parents will ask for charge back and get it without having to prove it. In a Merchant Account you can have very high charge-backs on one Credit Card and very low charge-backs on other Credit Cards. I've seen it happen that all of a sudden a company couldn't accept Visa anymore but still was able to accept the other credit cards. In general Credit Card Refunds are quite expensive and Paypal is a bit cheaper for this. The costs to transfer it from Paypal to your credit card are for the holder of the credit card. It's one of the USPs of Paypal.
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Post by mawa on Mar 3, 2010 10:47:18 GMT
li...hm, ok, understood - you are truely the expert
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xahmol
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 34
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Post by xahmol on Mar 3, 2010 11:17:44 GMT
Thanks Li for the explanations. Makes lots of sense while I was just naively thinking starting a new site with micropayments was as easy as signing a contract with a payment provider ;-)
Just wish Sellaband was as clear in explaining things....
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li
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 35
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Post by li on Mar 3, 2010 13:26:18 GMT
@xander: it is not that complicated if you're an existing company, especially if you're first world shop and already have an account with a credit card payment provider. If you decide to expand with an online store, it's not so difficult to get a MA.
The problem arises when you're only supplying services online. You can get a Merchant Account or ride on the Account of the Payment Provider (this is what Paypal offers, they open sub-accounts so your company's name ends up on the credit card bill), but the fees are higher and often the acceptance criteria are more strict as well. Often it helps when you're only selling inland too. It reduces the fees. In the Netherlands iDeal is a good option for starting online shops.
If you're thinking of setting up a LeCD online shop, Paypal might be your only option if you want to trade internationally and allow people to be able to pay by Credit Card. Charge-back risks can be insured to a certain extent, but these insurances cost as well.
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li
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 35
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Post by li on Mar 3, 2010 13:41:50 GMT
mawa: reluctant expert ;-) Have had Merchant Accounts in various countries since 1989, so my expertise comes from practice rather than from a true understanding of the financial markets and the whole Credit/Debit card industry. The situation has gotten better over the years, the times that you'd be barred from entering the US because of too many charge backs on a Merchant Account are gone ;-)
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Post by esthameian on Mar 3, 2010 17:50:22 GMT
So now we have passed close of business in the UK as well as in Europe on Decision-Day would the experts or 'leading lights' (Li & Lu especially) be in a position to summarise where they feel we currently stand, please? Maybe with guidelines as to how to make our decision, since nSAB does not seem to have come up with any answers to the most important questions particularly vis a vis the inability of those unwilling to agree to gain access to either information or their money in escrow.
It is not long now until the deadline beyond which we who have not pressed either button are deemed to have pressed the 'agree' one anyway and of course even the actual date of that deadline is unclear!
I have several people who also need this advice through me. They have mostly not had the time to be able to access these forums and read all the posts so are hanging on an answer from me. Some I contacted did not even know of the bankruptcy as they have lost interest in keeping minute by minute contact with their artists or believers over recent months. I expect many others on here are in a similar position.
Many thanks to all those who have taken the trouble to air their views on here to educate those of us unfamiliar with the world of business!
Dave
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