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Post by Lucretia on Nov 13, 2007 14:17:05 GMT
In the past month I've been getting an absolute flood of artists I believe in leaving Sellaband and now it looks like Man Made Ivory are off too (I had hours of fun - annoying but fun fun - with their believer game).
What do you think? Does this further enforce the theory that people are impatient, or is the reality of how few active believers there are beginning to strike home? (consider Sommersby's latest competition - if the figure of 20,000 believers is correct, then roughly 1% could be bothered to vote). Where do we go from here?
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Post by isca on Nov 13, 2007 17:29:35 GMT
Hmm, yes. It is becoming a bit of a trend.
I think it probably is a mixture of impatience, and the soul destroying daily fact that no-one has visited your page to listen, left messages or (god forbid) bought parts. I'm not talking about an artist's ego being hurt (although that is probably in the mix too). But I know for a fact that 2 bands have told me that they are leaving because its too painful to keep finding out that they have no support!!
Perhaps it is also beginning to bite that there are too few believers, and also, that the existing believer community is really struggling to pour in the amount of parts they once used to, or is waiting for some return on what they have already "spent".
Perhaps a graded-spend of the 50k is something to consider. Be really interesting to see how many of the fab 11 to date actually use all of their budget on the recordings for the SAB CD.
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Post by theaverageperson on Nov 13, 2007 18:48:15 GMT
I know the both of you were/are fans of Outrance and his reasons for leaving are connected to what you've mentioned. He left because he felt that the only way to attract more believers was to create more commercial sounding music.
As an artist, if you feel that you have attracted all the believers you are ever going to with your music the way it is then you will obviously feel pressured to change it into something more mainstream and acceptable. This goes against an artist's creative instincts. If SAB can't create the environment for the finge dwellers to at least believe that they can succeed then a mainstream cycle will start to perpetuate itself.
All bands know other bands just like them. If one comes to SAB and quits out of frustration then they will pass on their experiences to those that they know.
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Post by wyando on Nov 18, 2007 14:14:42 GMT
Fact is, that in an online community, you need a real mass of members to get a good number of activity. We still fail to have that real mass of member...
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sergio
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 11
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Post by sergio on Nov 20, 2007 21:36:02 GMT
Hello Being here as Sergio an not as the band I'd like to share my thought. And being one of those who is thinking about leaving sellaband . I think there is something weird in sellaband. I surfed here fore some months and IMHO there are a couple of things that bring artists to get tired about sellaband. And one is - I am talking about myself of course so take what I say as my singular thought- is that sellaband is more a people community than a music community.It seems to me that the aim is getting the highest number of friends you can instead of getting the highest number of fans. Of course I am not meaning that meeting people here is bad but I think that it is bad that it is the primary thing. What I thought in the beginning was that I would have had my songs shared. Believe in yourself or not I think that everyone here can realise it is difficult that being 5000 and more artists all will get to the 50k, it is obvious that only a little percentage can get there. But I thought I could have a feedback about the songs. You know, I like it or not, something like that. I think that starting from there you can meet a (more or less little)number of people you can often communicate with and a number of fans that simply like your songs. I felt there was something wrong when I realised that I was trying to have people passing on my page and not to have people listening to my songs. And I still think it is wrong. Looking from this point of view I sometimes wonder if sab is just a new way to promote songs and if again the songs that people like are just the ones that are better promoted. It is not so different from having a record company that promotes some songs instead of other. I am not meaning I feel underrated, I know that probably if I did not get to some success here it is just because the people I contacted simply didn't like my songs. What sounds strange is that I have more than 2000 visits on my page, 500 ore some more listenings but I've had only a 30-40 people leaving me a comment. I mean, just a "you are stinky" means that someone listened to your songs and produced an opinion. But nothing... nothingisn't enough. It doesn't mean you are bad, it means you don't deserve a word. I am a failed musician but if I am still here searching the web for new musical sites it is because I need to be listened. Silence is bad in a music community. The last thing I noticed is that on the official forum you can read only if you are logged in. What do this mean? Is it a club? In or out? That is a feeling you can get if you don't get to raise the charts This is bad for sab, I think, musicians just ask to be listened, This is of course just my opinion, it is my primary motivation to lose...motivation here on sab. Please, remember I don't manage English very well so if I used some wrong tone, if I was aggressive, it is just for a language problem but It is not my intention to be bad to anyone or anything(and if I spoke badly please tell me! I nedd some experienxe with English) Ciao
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Post by Lucretia on Nov 21, 2007 16:54:17 GMT
I see nothing wrong or agressive in what you have posted at all Sergio. When I first read the information about Sellaband, before even looking at any artists, I had a very different idea of the site. By reading the site, I thought of established musicians with a fan base who could not get a record deal (or who wanted to do things themselves). Maybe they had fans in their own country but wanted to spread worldwide. This way you would get artists with an existing fanbase get to say 5-10K or even more pretty quickly (as people like Jula Marcell, BPM and others have done) and then pick up the rest of the people required to make the 50K from other believers at the Sellaband site. The other thing I saw is that some of those fans who were introduced to Sellaband because they came along to support a particular artist would find other artists they liked on the site and so this is what would lead people to become believers in more than one artist (and I suppose you could say believe in Sellaband as a result). I did not consider this idea as good for new artists or niche artists (unless they already had some kind of fan base) purely because of the amount of time it would take them to raise the 50K unless they were really really lucky. These were (and really still are) my thoughts on what the site would be like, rather than what it has actually turned out to be like. As has been said, getting 50K from nothing is not an easy job at all and what I saw when I actually looked at artists is a very different picture from my original idea of what the site should be. It is a trend which has continued, whether for good or bad. The musician's "I want to be heard" has generally brought the site to the position it is today. Instead of Sellaband becoming a place for artists to bring their existing fans and raise 50K, it has become a place where artists seem to be signing up simply to get their music heard when that is quite clearly not the original intention of the site (the original intention is to raise 50K to make an album). So this is why we are now seeing a community based on promotion and contacting/meeting people - it is quite simple, if all artists come here looking for people to listen to their music because they have few or no fans already, then where are the people who will listen to the music going to come from? If artists do not bring people with them to "share" round other artists here, it is only people who find the site by accident and like what they see (as I did) that will become believers. We have had discussions on this forum before about whether Sellaband is turning into Myspace because of exactly the things you say in your post i.e. that it has become less about the music and more about how many people you can get to like you and interact with you. "Popularity breeds popularity" would be one way to put it. So where does this leave niche artists? I don't really know. I think each has to make their own choice. I don't think it is ever going to be easy for niche artists to get heard, wherever you go. The internet gives you the chance to connect with people you wouldn't normally get the chance to in your own local area, but there are just so many others trying exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I've seen niche artists move from site to site looking for the next small community where they might more easily be heard because there are less competing artists, only to forget that there are going to be less potential listeners there too.
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sergio
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 11
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Post by sergio on Nov 21, 2007 20:27:30 GMT
So where does this leave niche artists? I don't really know. I think each has to make their own choice. I don't think it is ever going to be easy for niche artists to get heard, wherever you go. The internet gives you the chance to connect with people you wouldn't normally get the chance to in your own local area, but there are just so many others trying exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I've seen niche artists move from site to site looking for the next small community where they might more easily be heard because there are less competing artists, only to forget that there are going to be less potential listeners there too. It's a kind of magic...I transformed the ending of your post in the beginning of my quote because...I just wanted to say in the beginning that I am not speaking of niche artists! I think this argument is general I see nothing wrong or agressive in what you have posted at all Sergio. This make me relax but please don't forget to tell me when I use badly (or, let's say, too badly) the English language As has been said, getting 50K from nothing is not an easy job at all and what I saw when I actually looked at artists is a very different picture from my original idea of what the site should be. It is a trend which has continued, whether for good or bad. The musician's "I want to be heard" has generally brought the site to the position it is today. Instead of Sellaband becoming a place for artists to bring their existing fans and raise 50K, it has become a place where artists seem to be signing up simply to get their music heard when that is quite clearly not the original intention of the site (the original intention is to raise 50K to make an album). So this is why we are now seeing a community based on promotion and contacting/meeting people - it is quite simple, if all artists come here looking for people to listen to their music because they have few or no fans already, then where are the people who will listen to the music going to come from? If artists do not bring people with them to "share" round other artists here, it is only people who find the site by accident and like what they see (as I did) that will become believers. We have had discussions on this forum before about whether Sellaband is turning into Myspace because of exactly the things you say in your post i.e. that it has become less about the music and more about how many people you can get to like you and interact with you. "Popularity breeds popularity" would be one way to put it. Everything you say is right but in my opinion, with full respect to yours of course, you are missing a point. I had people "putting money" in my band in the past. In several ways: from buying cds to helping us with the bus playing live and so on. Sellaband is different: you ask your fans to invest money on you hoping that in the future it could come back. And you ask them to get in a community. When trying to spread the word of sellaband I met people, my fanbase I'd say, telling me things like "noo, the Internet is not for me, I will give you the 10 euros, or dollars, and you will put it on the site". I know this could be a strange behaviour but it is socially true that in this particular moment the network is spreading around but not everyone - and speaking in my case about Italy, not the majority of people- is ready to put money on the web. To clarify this - maybe in your country things are different or simply the people I know are suspicious- the majority of the people I know buys cds (not music cds but empty recordable cds) in supermarkets at prices around 0.45 euro/cd while I buy them on the web paying them something like 0.15 euro/cd. It's three time less but when I ask them why don't they ebay they tell me they don't feel safe. The Internet is a world apart. So where this comes to? It comes to the fact that in my opinion it is true that believers should be searched around the web and not between existing fanbases. ALso because I see many believers around that believed in one band only. It's just my opinion but I think the majority of these believers just open their account to invest on their heart's band but are not interested in the concept of sab, they rely on the band person they know which tells them to put their money here. If sellaband is different it should search for different people. We shouldn't also forget that it's not true that sab's aim is to get to the 50k. Sab's aim is "you are the record company" or "you decide". "I want to be heard" doesn't mean that I want my music being played in an empty room. It means "I want to be listened". Popularity starts here, from someone listening and saying to someone else that music is good. Then, it's true, popularity produces popularity. But popularity doesn't born - or it shouldn't- from the number of good messages you write but from the number of good messages you receive. If you just receive bad messages you won't be popular. But I am sure that the aim isn't, it isn't the only one I mean, of getting to the 50k. If you start from such a point you will have 1/10 of the artists you have on the site. You would have only the ones who relly believe in their band, not just as a matter of self-belief, but as a matter of job. I think the majority comes here noticing an opportunity they don't have anywhere else, not only have your music listened but also, if you are very very lucky, to have a pro recording. The 50k is the top but it can't be the primary aim, it is the thing that makes sab unique but if you take it alone it doesn't mean anything. Whoah! In the end I am not sure I said the thing I wanted to say...I am sorry that my posts are this long and chaotic, I hope you will have the patience to read everything and tell me if I told something...if not I will try again. Just not to seem too much loghorroic I tell you that in Italian I would have posted 3 or 4 rows for the same message... ;D
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Post by isca on Nov 22, 2007 17:50:45 GMT
Ella Stich sent a message to say that she is off too.
d**n, I really liked her tunes.
and another one gone, and another one gone....
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Post by mawa on Dec 2, 2007 20:18:42 GMT
This is an interesting as it is a recurring topic. And for the record, this is such a cultivated place, sorry I have been so absent....
On the topic, which I think still is: "What is Sellaband about?" just one note as a nuance to this interesting discussion:
What it appears to me from an artists perspective, is that the approach seems to be a lot like what I usually call, like 'going for a haircut', no luggage, no preparation, no further reflections...
My understanding always is: If you try to do something, try to do it 100% (or more), otherwise it is not worth it, and, sad to say, neither are you. Don't waste your energy, but please have the courtesy, not to waste anyone else's.
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sergio
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 11
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Post by sergio on Dec 6, 2007 21:21:27 GMT
What it appears to me from an artists perspective, is that the approach seems to be a lot like what I usually call, like 'going for a haircut', no luggage, no preparation, no further reflections... My understanding always is: If you try to do something, try to do it 100% (or more), otherwise it is not worth it, and, sad to say, neither are you. Don't waste your energy, but please have the courtesy, not to waste anyone else's. I quote because I need to know if I understood what your words mean (as told I am not an English master and I noticed reading your posts all around that you make large usage of irony so I just want to know if I got it right or not). You are saying that some artists come on sab only with their songs not worrying about having more preparation about anything else. Am I right? If not please excuse me, probably being able to speak a good English would really be the first prerogative to come in such a place... Anyway, if this is the question (and if it is not please just tell me) I think, speaking only about my band, of course, that you are right. I came here full of doubts beginning from English and going through seeing bands having great sites, marketing skills and so on. I just think there is a big misunderstanding I made and, I think, many others can do: thinking about the people who invest in the music they like, what an artist (could)think is that people are here to listen and not to judge the whole marketing aspect of a band. I mean, I am not saying that someone would invest in a losing investment. But the impression I had was that if someone could like my songs then he would have been interested in marketing me. My idea was that if my music was good then the believers would have taken the time to spread it around while now I understood that believers want me, or the artists, to spread it around. This was one of the things I thought that could be the most important. I know that this is just my fault in understanding but I can't stop thinking that it's the record company who manages the marketing aspects of the band. I don't have marketing skills so I know that, even if we are not speaking about the music, I won't have any success on sab. But I think it's a concept mistake, I think that better results could be achieved if fans were trying to sell their artists. But, I repeat, I know I don't have marketing skills and it was just a wrong thought, really, I am not judging anyone apart myself. If it matters, always if I understood your message well , I don't think that anyone here is thinking to waste anyone's energy, I don't want to waste mine so it comes by itself I don't want to waste yours I think and if I did it with anyone you can believe it was not my intention and I am sorry
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Post by mawa on Dec 7, 2007 14:59:34 GMT
Hi Sergio, yep, I hang around here too much, you're right <- irony. Nope, the statement was not meant really ironic, rather a bit sad. See, yes its about music and whether someone likes it or not, but it is also about money. What I do mostly now, and I guess many of the other believers have now a quite similar approach to it: - you get 1 part if I like your music - everything else further: more parts or help of any different kind comes, when I get the feeling a) you appreciate it and b) you have a realistic chance to make 'it' - well, I am not always following my own rules but anyway You can use SAB for different purposes, getting 50k is only one possibility as it seems, getting fans, getting help and advise, just having fun are probably other valid goals. Just, what I expect from you and anyone else: make it clear for you and for anyone else interested. If, and I repeat IF, you want to go for 50k and that does not happen by surpise more or less automatically, you have to: - work hard - learn, learn, learn: ALL aspects of the profession of music, yes marketing is a part of that - and all the other wise words floating around here Don't think someone else will do your job. Yes, SAB itself may help you (when you read my posts you know that I am criticising them as well, but that is not the point), but its unlikely, that this will really fall in place before you hit 50k, and it will always only be a part, not everything. Some people may help you, I personally have become for some what you could describe an "Advisor" or even a "Business Angel", but at the end its still down to you. Or you find people doing that part for you, here or somewhere else, some of those are called 'majors'.
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sergio
Sellaband addict in waiting
Posts: 11
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Post by sergio on Dec 7, 2007 15:20:11 GMT
Hi Sergio, yep, I hang around here too much, you're right <- irony. hmmm...now I'm wondering if you read my post about irony as ironic...Or if you are puuting in more irony...aargh!...I begin to feel an odd way... Nope, the statement was not meant really ironic, rather a bit sad. See, yes its about music and whether someone likes it or not, but it is also about money. What I do mostly now, and I guess many of the other believers have now a quite similar approach to it: - you get 1 part if I like your music - everything else further: more parts or help of any different kind comes, when I get the feeling a) you appreciate it and b) you have a realistic chance to make 'it' - well, I am not always following my own rules but anyway You can use SAB for different purposes, getting 50k is only one possibility as it seems, getting fans, getting help and advise, just having fun are probably other valid goals. Just, what I expect from you and anyone else: make it clear for you and for anyone else interested. If, and I repeat IF, you want to go for 50k and that does not happen by surpise more or less automatically, you have to: - work hard - learn, learn, learn: ALL aspects of the profession of music, yes marketing is a part of that - and all the other wise words floating around here Don't think someone else will do your job. Yes, SAB itself may help you (when you read my posts you know that I am criticising them as well, but that is not the point), but its unlikely, that this will really fall in place before you hit 50k, and it will always only be a part, not everything. Some people may help you, I personally have become for some what you could describe an "Advisor" or even a "Business Angel", but at the end its still down to you. Or you find people doing that part for you, here or somewhere else, some of those are called 'majors'. I have no objections, you see, I think you are right. And what I think, after my personal experience and after having read topics with people discussing the utility of having so many artists being not active here, is that more transparency (directly translated from italian, I'm not sure if this is the right shade of the word) about "what is sellaband about", as you correctly said before, could be really useful both for sab, the believers and the artists. 6000 artists, or 5000, I mean, more or less, for 20000 believers are too much, sab needs less artists (or more believers) but that's the same and maybe being more precise in the aim of sab this could be achieved (not excluding, of course, that I could be the only one who misunderstood the meaning of the whole thing...). Nothing sad, anyway, there are so many things that can be really worse than sab!!!! ;D
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